Blackfathom Deep, Part I
Posted by Suzanne on February 17, 2008
I’m at a level where I could look for a BFD or a Deadmines group, so lately, I’ve been entering the LFG for both. Deadmines groups are pretty much a dead end every time, because there just isn’t enough interest Horde side on killing Van Cleef. Maybe it’s because there aren’t any Horde quests for the dungeon and I’m on a relatively low population server, so there’s not enough alliance alt spillover — I don’t know. (This one might get crossed off the list for this project. We’ll see.)
I must have chosen an especially bad LFG time last weekend, because after about 2 hours in the LFG for BFD and Deadmines, the only bite I got was for SFK. I said no thanks, but mentioned the other two instances I’d be up for. The other person said, “I’ll do Deadmines.” My heart sank.
We waited. And waited. And waited. No other takers. After about two hours, we switched and queued for BFD. And waited and waited and waited. I called this one a wash, and logged onto one of my main toons for a few hours.
Later in the evening, I decided to give it a second shot. I logged in, peeked into the LFG, and saw a group of four looking for one more. Woooo! I messaged the leader and they invited me, and then I scrolled over everyone’s portraits. We had…
- Level 25 Blood Elf Hunter (no guild)
- Level 25 Undead Priest (no guild)
- Level 23 Tauren Shaman (in a guild)
- Level 36 Orc Warrior…
Level 36? Well, that would take the sport out of it, but I suppose this is the way of the pug. It’s not as though this person could just walk us through it like a 50 or 60 could, so I decided to just go with it. Some pugs offer you someone far too low for the instance, and occasionally, you get someone above the level range.
I was in Camp Taurajo upon joining the group, and asked if I should fly or whether they could summon me, as I noted that the hunter and priest were both in Zoram’Gar. “We’ll summon,” they said. I wandered around, sifted through my inbox, and rearranged my inventory for 10 minutes before I finally decided to hop a flight. After about 2 minutes in the air, they finally summoned me.
The hunter was very hoppy. He exhibited the behaviors I typically see in rogues with all the running back and forth, jumping around, and circling every person and structure available repeatedly. Both the priest and the shaman were much more subdued, and both held still while I conjured water for them. I basically had to chase the hunter down and throw it at him.
Clearly, we weren’t going to be able to summon the warrior, so I sat down by the stone to wait for him. He wasn’t all that far off, and gauging his location changes, I figured he must be in flight. When his location said Zoram’Gar, I stood up. “Gunna go have a smoke,” he said. I sat down again. The hunter suggested we go inside without him — the warrior could easily catch up. I stood up again. Onward!
We started blasting our way through the areas before the instance, picking up the Sapphires of Aku’Mai, and by the time we got to the entrance, the warrior had caught up with us. We headed inside…
The first thing that struck me when we started fighting was that my DPS seemed a bit low, even compared to the priest. I mean, sure, I was a few levels below everyone else, but compared to our healer? And then I noted that the priest was letting the tank’s health get very low. I supposed that could explain it. If the priest was more focused on DPS than healing… but, at level 36, half of that warrior’s health was probably equal to my entire health bar (or more), so maybe it wasn’t such a big deal. It did make me a little nervous though. When I’m the healer, I do my best to keep folks topped off, just in case we get jumped by patrols. I try not to overheal, but I stay on my toes.
Within 10 minutes of getting inside, we’d killed the first boss, Lady Sarevess. She dropped the Darkwater Talwar, and everyone but me rolled greed. The priest won the roll and then immediately disenchanted it! There was no discussion and no shard roll. Hrm. If I’d been able to use the sword, I probably would have been irritated by this. He continued to roll greed on all the blues, in fact, and shard each one that he won. To his credit, only rolled need when he would wear the item, but sharding the blues right in front of us with no offer of a roll for the shard… I think that kind of stinks. I always offer to disenchant BoPs that nobody can use so we can roll for the (often much more valuable) shard. Something in my upbringing, I guess, and I somehow expect it of others. But, I digress…
You know that bit in BFD where you have to jump across the platforms? What, you say you don’t have to jump across them, you can just swim diagonally underneath to the next area and approach it from the side? Yeah, I’d no idea. I’ve run that dungeon dozens of times, and every time, I’ve stood on the first platform, made a cautious alignment of my toon, taken a few steps back for a good running start to make sure I don’t fall in a crack, and hold my breath as I leap to the other side. And repeat. It’s kind of sad to know all this is unnecessary. I was getting pretty good at it.
We’d been in the instance not fifteen minutes when the hunter said, “Gotta go shower.” What? “I’ll catch up,” he said. Heh… so, we totally left him behind. He caught up with us about 20 minutes later, and jumped right into battle. Very strange.
The bad news? The rest of the instance was truly uneventful, even when we were down one party member. With a tank 10+ levels above the instance level, there’s a lot more room for error, I guess. We even lit more than one candle at a time in the chamber before the final boss, and we still had no troubles. Ridiculous! Kelris dropped the Gaze Dreamer Pants, and I won the need roll against the priest for them. Yay for upgrades! Aku’Mai dropped Strike of the Hydra, which was a nice upgrade for the shaman.
The good news? I have to run BFD again, because as soon as you return the first set of quests, you’re sent right back to harvest the head of Lorgus Jett (who only drops cloth and cheese, it seems). So, there will be another BFD pug soon… 
Total time spent in the group: 1 hour 27 minutes
Total time spent in the instance: 1 hour 3 minutes
Hunter shower duration: 18 minutes.
Dammerung said
A thought:
Myself, I’ve never even considered letting people have a chance at shards if I win a greed roll. To me thats part of the loot I just won. Is this a common practice at higher levels?
Curious.
Ess said
Hmm… interesting.
It seems like whenever I’m running with an enchanter on my server, they offer to disenchant the BoP stuff that nobody wants so we can all roll for the shard. (I’ve found this in pugs as well as groups with my guildmates.) Shards are almost always going to yield a higher amount of cash in the AH than what the item would bring from the vendor. It also means folks have shards to offer other enchanters for when they need enchants themselves. (If it’s not BoP, it doesn’t enter into the equation at all, of course.) Maybe there have been enchanters in the past that haven’t offered to do this, but I’ve never seen one of them disenchant the item while still in the group! That’s why it struck me.
I have read arguments against this practice, and know some folks who will always pass on the shard roll. They say that the person who will ultimately get the most benefit from the shard is the enchanter. Maybe true, but at the low levels, the shards really are a great way to make money in the AH. As an enchanter I always offer the shard roll, because in the end, it changes the drop from something nobody will use to something that each group member could benefit from.
Pablo said
Look at it this way – would you begrudge a miner from cleaning out a vein inside an instance? Would you be shocked if the tailor kept a bolt of runecloth to themselves? Apalled that the skinner didn’t offer the rugged leather up for a roll-off? Since everyone rolled greed instead of ‘ZOMG NEED!!!’, the item is up for grabs. Once the enchanter wins the item it’s his to do with as he pleases. If he sells it, shards it or puts it in the bank to rot, it shouldn’t make any difference.
Now if he was rolling need for stuff that other people were interested in using, and then sharding it, that’s a different matter entirely. The he gets added to the asshat list.
The bigger problem is the huntard taking a shower break in the middle of the run. WTF? My guess: Hopping around like an idiot + mandatory shower break = 12yo kid whose mom is yelling at him.
Ess said
It wasn’t a huge problem, it was just a surprise. Maybe my server is weird? I can’t think of a time I’ve partied with an enchanter (when they have admitted to being one) where they haven’t offer to shard stuff for everyone to roll on. I also make the same offer every time I instance with my enchanter. To me, that’s a nice thing to do, and makes loot nobody can use more valuable. I do give him credit for not needing — that would have totally sucked.
I see what you’re getting at with your other examples, though they don’t match the sharding situation exactly. With the runecloth, everyone can harvest it, so rolling is pointless. With the mining, of course I wouldn’t begrudge the miner his ore, but if there is more than one miner, it is nice if they roll (not that they always do). Or do you mean, should we also all be allowed to roll on the ore that the miner just picked up? Perhaps that is closer to the enchanter example. With that parallel, I could argue that the enchanter wouldn’t have the BoP unless I helped them kill the mob, so in essence, I helped harvest it.
Very interesting to hear different points of view on this. I did a little scrounging and found this BRK article on the subject (this is what I was thinking of when I responded to Dammerung), and there are quite a few opinions summarized here as well (though I haven’t had a chance to read through all of them.
And I agree… I’m sure that was a kid who was being forced to take his shower before bedtime. Hee hee…
Innonexess said
Gratz on the extra BFD run, i usually run it once, at the most, i just find it so boring.
Anyway, hopping you continued success with the blog
Ess said
@Innonexess
Thanks! It is a bummer that Lorgus Jett doesn’t drop anything fun. It hardly makes the second trip worth it, but the XP is nice. And maybe I’ll run into some crazy folks this time!
@Pablo and Dammerung
I feel like I should clarify something (after thinking about all this on my commute home). Once that guy won the greed roll, it was over. I didn’t expect a shard roll after that. The way I like it to go is…
- if nobody needs it, everyone passes
- the enchanter picks up the item and disenchants it
- everybody rolls on the shard, enchanter passes the shard to the winner
He won the item fair and square in a greed roll, so yes, he was entitled to do whatever he liked with it. I always offer the above when running instances with my enchanter, however, as I think it’s a nice way of adding value to an otherwise useless drop (particularly in the early instances where the blues will be bought by the vendor for less than 50s).
Dammerung said
A question: If you kill a mob that can be skinned. Do you roll for the mats if you have a skinner?
If you don’t then the loot should go to the skinner. Now if there are multiple people in the party with the same skill(say two herbalists) and they both see a herb I think they should roll for who gets to loot it. But otherwise the herbs/skins/shards should go to the user of the skill.
I can see doing /roll for the BOP item and then letting the enchanter loot the corpse and shard it for whoever won the roll(and then being given a tip/fee). Or for a BOE item if I won the greed roll and person x was the enchanter I could hand it to them and request they disenchant it so I could have the shard(for a %’age fee/tip of course).
I mean.. they took the time to level up the skill, so me paying them to shard it for me is much like me paying a rogue to lock pick it for me. Etc.
I guess thats where I’m coming from. That this is a skill they took the time to level up and they should be paid for using it like anyone else would be.
Ess said
Enchanters I’ve run with have never charged a fee/tip for the shard, and neither have I when I’m the enchanter in the group. (I could see tipping if they disenchanted a BoE for me, though I’ve never seen an enchanter offer that.) Again, I’m just describing what I’ve encountered up until now on my server. I definitely see the points you’re making, it’s just different than what I’m used to. I’ve never seen skinners offer a roll for hides, miners offer rolls for ore, or herbalists offer rolls for the plants they pick. Why would enchanting be different? I don’t know. In my experience it just is, and I’ve never questioned it (until now?).
It is interesting to consider the situation in that light, but I don’t plan to change my ways when I’m the enchanter in the group. I’ll either offer a shard roll or disenchant the item later if the group would rather do greed rolls for all the BoPs. Perhaps it’s a silly hang-up, but that’s the way I roll. (Oh gosh, that was terrible, wasn’t it…) Despite my opinions about this, I don’t force my views on others when in groups either. I didn’t make the suggestion at all in the above pug, and I’d never tell an enchanter that that’s what they had to do when grouping with me.
Dammerung said
A small note Ess.. I’m not in anyway trying to say or suggest what you do is wrong/bad/unnormal. I’ve actually really enjoyed this comment discussion because it has helped me formulate my views on the subject.
/note done joke below
I for one believe that the ‘chanters in my group better shape up and do what I say or I’ll have to abuse them and beg mightily for enchants when they get angry and beat me down.
Ess said
Hee hee hee…
It’s cool — I’m not taking any of the discussion personally, and I hope nobody else is either. (I meant to sound more decisive than defensive in my last comment up there!) I still feel like a fairly new player, and so I appreciate it when folks offer a different point of view. I may find that I like their ideas better, or that they have an explanation I hadn’t thought of.
Pablo said
Let me say this, I’m not an enchanter, I don’t currently have any enchantments, and I’ve never really run into this situation. The groups I run with are all RL friends and family, so anything BoP that’s not wanted goes to the Enchanter to shard. I don’t know if the shards go into the guild bank or if he just keeps them with the understanding that he’ll use them to enchant your stuff when needed. /shrug.
Now, in a PUG situation, it would be damn convenient if the enchanter offered to shard anything that’s not needed by the rest of the group, so long as he has a chance to roll for it too. That way everyone has a chance to build up their own personal supply of enchanting materials.
I do think that profession kind of gets the shaft. Being unable to throw stuff up on the auction house is a huge disadvantage. As a leather worker, not much of my stuff sells readily either, but I do get enough nibbles here and there to make up for the items I just sell to vendors. It would be terrific for them, and very convenient for the rest of the non-enchanters, if they could put enchantment scrolls on the auction house. I guess they do make their money by putting materials that they’ve broken down up for sale and then offering enchants as ‘your mats, my skill’. Okay, I’m just rambling now, good discussion, thanks for the blog, can’t wait for BFD part II.
Ess said
The market fluctuates wildly on my server, so I don’t do this much any more, but for a while there I was making huge amounts of cash by buying stuff in the AH, disenchanting it, and then posting the dusts, essences, and shards right back in the AH. HUGE profit. Enormous! Biiiiig! With a little help from Enchantrix, an enchanter can make a killing (assuming not everyone on your server already runs this).
And I’ve never seen the enchanter offer to disenchant any BoEs — it’s usually just for the BoPs. That would be nice of them to offer to do other stuff, too. Maybe I’ll offer that at the next run my enchanter does, and see what people say! I don’t know if I’d take advantage of it myself (since I have an enchanter, and many of the BoEs I pick up end up going to my army of alts), but I’d be curious to see if anyone else would.
BFD II is hopefully coming soon…
El said
It’s been a while since I ran any low-level dungeons, so I honestly don’t really know how people handle there loot-shard issue there.
Normally you would set rules about whether the gear noone needs will be sharded, etc. You could just ask next time about that, as in “hey guys, are we going to roll for shards?”. While reading your post, I was kind of expecting him to offer a shard roll at the end of the run, though. In my experience, people just prefer to hand them out at the end of the run instead of stopping after every boss.
Yes, lowish level enchanting mats sell quite well nowadays, but I honestly don’t think market is that awesome for shards of that level (25ish?). You can level enchanting entirely without using shards, for example. So maybe noone just cared enough about passing out shards.